My Debate with a Pastor (cont)

(See Full Debate Here)

(9/20/07)
Infidel,
It is interesting that you say you are in awe of so many things (music, etc.) that are far less complex than your body and yet require a creator: music performance had a musician, poetry, art, telescope, etc. To have such complexity points to intelligence to create it.
-Saul

(9/20/07)
Infidel,
Here are many verses showing the practice of homosexuality to be sin:

Rom 1:27
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
NIV

Gen 13:13
13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.
NIV

Gen 19:5-8
5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
NIV

Lev 18:22
22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
NIV

Lev 20:13
13 "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.
NIV

Judg 19:22-23
22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing.
NIV

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
NIV

Jude 7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
NIV


(9/20/07)
Saul- thanks for the verses. Let me give you my interpretation of what they say, because I think a compelling case can be made that the bible is not as anti-gay as you think (aside from Leviticus)

Here are many verses showing the practice of homosexuality to be sin:
Rom 1:27
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
This does seem to condemn the mens' behavior. However it goes on to say that these people are worthy of death, are in favor of the biblical punishment? If not, isn't that hypocritical?

Gen 13:13
13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.
Do we have any evidence that the crimes committed by Soddom were homosexual in nature?

Gen 19:5-8
5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
What if a mob of men came to your house and said "let your Daughter come out of the house so we can have sex with her." Might you not say something like, "That's a wicked thing, go away." Since you brought up this story, isn't Lot's offer extremely immoral when he offers his own daughters up for gang rape? How does this action make him the most moral guy in the city? I don't see how this action by the men necessarily is an indictment of homosexuality, more an indictment that it is wicked of any group to demand to have sex with anyone, male or female.

Lev 18:22
22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Lev 20:13
13 "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.
Okay, Leviticus is straightforward. However do you eat shellfish or trim your beard? You easily throw out one outdated standard but keep the other under the guise of a 'new covenant.' Please show me the verse where Jesus said which parts of the 'old covenant' still applied, and which did not. And where he specifically condemned homosexuality.

Judg 19:22-23
22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing.
Hmm, sounds an awful lot like plagiarism of Gen 19:5-8. My comments previously apply to this as well.

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Cor 6:9-11
6:9 And Ahimaaz begat Azariah, and Azariah begat Johanan,
6:10 And Johanan begat Azariah, (he it is that executed the priest's office in the temple that Solomon built in Jerusalem:)
6:11 And Azariah begat Amariah, and Amariah begat Ahitub,
????

Jude 7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Again, we know Sodom and Gomorrah were sinning nations, but where does it say that they were homosexuals? It very well may say that somewhere, but please tell me the verse.
So there's my take on the verses you provided. Maybe some food for thought there, maybe not if you are very entrenched in your conviction that homosexuality is wrong, just as Larry Craig and Ted Haggard were.
-Infidel

(9/20/07)
Bible is not “anti-gay” but rather pro sexual purity as God designed it and He created male and female and called them to become one in flesh and not male and male to become one in flesh. Romans 1 is the most clear: it is unnatural and not as God intended. Jesus affirmed the one man and one woman relationship in the Gospels. He loves all people and wants to forgive and heal and purify if they allow him to.

I have a very busy week so can’t do much corresponding. Keep seeking truth. God is going to show Himself to you. I really believe that. I am going to do less and less intellectual dialogue on these emails. I am more and more about the heart and our relationship with God and not doing too much arguing about issues, etc.
John 10:10,
Saul